Sherriff refuses to raise flag for Mandela.

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

Why do you guys sugarcoat it?

When Mandela was arrested on his Rivonia farm hideout near Johannesburg, the following munitions and bomb-making equipment were confiscated with him and his comrades.


   210,000 hand grenades
   48,000 anti-personnel mines
   1,500 time devices
   144 tons of ammonium nitrate
   21,6 tons of aluminium powder
   1 ton of black powder

First off, Mandela was captured in 1962. The Liliesleaf Farm wasn't raided until 1963. So Mandela had nothing to do with it, and most certainly was not there. Mandela at the time was a political prisoner. However when they found documents during the raid linking him to the ANC and MK, he was stood trial with the rest who were actually involved and there during the raid.

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

Actually Mandala was going to blow up parliament how many innocent civilians there? I am talking janitors supply clerks secretaries. The ANC killed anyone opposed to them.

THE ANC’S VICTIMS WERE MOSTLY CIVILIANS:
1981 – 2 car bombs at Durban showrooms
1983 – Church Street Bomb (killed 19, wounded 217)
1984 – Durban car bomb (killed 5, wounded 27)
1985-1987 – At least 150 landmines on farm roads (killed 125)
1985 – Amanzimtoti Sanlam shopping centre bomb Dec 23 (killed 2 white women and 3 white children)
1986 – Magoo’s Bar bomb (killed 3, wounded 69)
1986 – Newcastle Court bomb (wounded 24)
1987 – Johannesburg Court bomb (killed 3, wounded 10)
1987 – Wits command centre car bomb (killed 1, wounded 68)
1988 – Johannesburg video arcade (killed 1 unborn baby, wounded 10)
1988 – Roodepoort bank bomb (killed 4, wounded 18)
1988 – Pretoria Police housing unit, 2 bombs (wounded 3)
1988 – Magistrate’s Court bomb (killed 3)
1988 – Benoni Wimpy Bar bomb (killed 1, wounded 56)
1988 – Witbank shopping centre bomb (killed 2, wounded 42)
1988 – Ellis Park Rugby Stadium car bomb (killed 2, wounded 37)
Late 1980s – numerous Wimpy Restaurant bombs (killed many, wounded many.

No innocents huh?

That's the ANC and MK but NOT Mandela. Again, Mandela was in prison since 1964. He had no communication with or control over the ANC or MK since 1962. Oliver Tambo did.

Mandela was never a terrorist, nor a murderer. Did he resort to violence? Absolutely. Kill anybody? Nope.

Quote :

Four forms of violence are possible. There is sabotage, there is guerrilla warfare, there is terrorism, and there is open revolution. We chose to adopt the first method and to test it fully before taking any other decision.

In the light of our political background the choice was a logical one. Sabotage did not involve loss of life, and it offered the best hope for future race relations. Bitterness would be kept to a minimum and, if the policy bore fruit, democratic government could become a reality. This is what we felt at the time, and this is what we said in our Manifesto, Exhibit AD, I quote:

"We of Umkhonto we Sizwe have always sought to achieve liberation without bloodshed and civil clash. We hope, even at this late hour, that our first actions will awaken everyone to a realisation of the disastrous situation to which Nationalist policy is leading. We hope that we will bring the Government and its supporters to their senses before it is too late, so that both the Government and its policies can be changed before matters reach the desperate state of civil war", unquote

If you didn't know, Mandela was a lawyer. As he knew he wasn't going to get a fair trial anyway, he defended himself. Here's what he said:

Mandela's speech at trial

Sabotage obviously didn't work. All it did was get them thrown in prison for life. So the ANC and MK chose to use guerrilla warfare and terrorism to see how that did. The point here, is Mandela had nothing to do with it.

Bandit wrote:

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

Why do you guys sugarcoat it?

When Mandela was arrested on his Rivonia farm hideout near Johannesburg, the following munitions and bomb-making equipment were confiscated with him and his comrades.


   210,000 hand grenades
   48,000 anti-personnel mines
   1,500 time devices
   144 tons of ammonium nitrate
   21,6 tons of aluminium powder
   1 ton of black powder

First off, Mandela was captured in 1962. The Liliesleaf Farm wasn't raided until 1963. So Mandela had nothing to do with it, and most certainly was not there. Mandela at the time was a political prisoner. However when they found documents during the raid linking him to the ANC and MK, he was stood trial with the rest who were actually involved and there during the raid.

When they raided they found bombs and stuff.

But he founded the militant wing.

nfluenced by Marxism, he secretly joined the South African Communist Party (SACP) and sat on its Central Committee. Although initially committed to non-violent protest, in association with the SACP he co-founded the militant Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK) in 1961.

However I will have to say before 1981 I cannot find any deaths that the MK were part of. Just Sabotage. I guess Ilaugh was right.

Right about what? Mandela was most definitely a terrorist and communist, no question about that. Nit picking that he wasn't a murderer because he never killed anybody personally, as far as we know, is a foolish idea. Using that logic Hitler and Bin Laden weren't murderers either. And before we go back to this idea that Mandela wasn't responsible for his group because he was in prison; 1) he was still the groups leader even if not in direct control 2) When asked to speak out and condemn their violence against innocents he refused to.

You can make the argument that his terrorism and killings were justified, but you can't claim they never happened. Any more than you can claim he wasn't a communist even though he was a communist party member.

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

When they raided they found bombs and stuff.

But he founded the militant wing.

nfluenced by Marxism, he secretly joined the South African Communist Party (SACP) and sat on its Central Committee. Although initially committed to non-violent protest, in association with the SACP he co-founded the militant Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK) in 1961.

However I will have to say before 1981 I cannot find any deaths that the MK were part of. Just Sabotage. I guess Ilaugh was right.

The Sharpeville massacre in March 1961, was the last straw for the ANC. A peaceful protest and the government killed 69 people, including 8 women and 10 children, and injured 180 more, including 31 women and 19 children. Many were shot in the back while trying to run.

So the ANC created the MK to become its military wing. But they had 3 major problems. They had no weapons, no supplies, and no training. Mandela used his communist contacts to gain the materials and training needed from Rhodesia. However, he was captured in 1962.

Now up to this point, the ANC and MK hadn't killed anybody. But under new leadership, that would change.