Sherriff refuses to raise flag for Mandela.

(CNN) -- A South Carolina sheriff is refusing to lower the American flag in tribute to Nelson Mandela, saying the honor should be reserved for American citizens. President Obama ordered flags lowered to half-staff for the international icon until sunset Monday. But Pickens County Sheriff Rick Clark says not in his department. "It's just my simple opinion that the flag should only be lowered to half-staff for Americans who sacrificed for their country," Clark told CNN affiliate WHNS. wrote:

I support him just because of freedom of choice. Mandala was communist but he did fight an injustice he should be given credit for that.

He's absolutely right to do so. This man was not a US citizen and never did anything to help this nation.

eber322 wrote:

He's absolutely right to do so. This man was not a US citizen and never did anything to help this nation.

Agreed Mandela only did one good thing. But he was a communist and a terrorist.

I found what Obama did disgusting. If he wants to mourn with Africa, step down, pack up the family and move there.

Mandela did nothing for the United States. Neither has South Africa. So why does Obama feel he needs to be honored? The whole thing reeks of a racist stunt.

What did Obama give Margaret Thatcher when she died? Not a damn thing. Why? Even Winston Churchill was respected by the US when he died. They were our closest and most trusted allies.

Funny, I don't remember conservatives going off the rails when Bush lowered the flag for Pope John Paul II, or the victims of the Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami. Or when Reagan ordered the flag be flown at half-staff in honor of Anwar Sadat.

I've also heard a lot of bitching from the right about Obama not even attending the funeral of Margaret Thatcher. You know who else didn't? That's right Bush, but he did attend Mandela's. He hitched a ride with Obama.

Oh ok, so if some other president did something wrong that means it's ok for Obama to do too. Great logic. And who really cares if Bush did, or did not, go to Thatcher or Mandelas funerals? He wasn't the President at those times, Obama was. And for him to not go to Thatchers funeral was a giant snub of her and England and reflects badly on our nation. Mandela not only didn't deserve our flags at half mast because he wasn't a American, he didn't deserve it because he was a terrorists, a murderer and a communist. No wonder Obama went to his funeral.

eber322 wrote:

Oh ok, so if some other president did something wrong that means it's ok for Obama to do too. Great logic.

Who said I think it was wrong.

Someone is President for life. It's a lifelong appointment. So the fact that you don't care that Bush didn't attend Thatcher's funeral but are angry about Obama's absence is little more than a sign of your own hypocrisy.

That so-called murdering, terrorist/Communist was the first black chief executive of South Africa, a Constitutional Democracy.Were he didn't attempt to usher in Communism, but did hold true to his word of only running for one term.

ilaugh wrote:

Funny, I don't remember conservatives going off the rails when Bush lowered the flag for Pope John Paul II, or the victims of the Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami. Or when Reagan ordered the flag be flown at half-staff in honor of Anwar Sadat.

I've also heard a lot of bitching from the right about Obama not even attending the funeral of Margaret Thatcher. You know who else didn't? That's right Bush, but he did attend Mandela's. He hitched a ride with Obama.

I don't care either way. But for CNN to make this a national story says all. This should not have even made the news. If Obama wants to lower the flag he has the right to do so. Just as the sheriff has the right no to lower it. Feds cannot tell the states or local government what to do with their flags.

I have no problem either way I just found it disturbing that CNN made it a national story.

ilaugh wrote:

eber322 wrote:

Oh ok, so if some other president did something wrong that means it's ok for Obama to do too. Great logic.

Who said I think it was wrong.

Someone is President for life. It's a lifelong appointment. So the fact that you don't care that Bush didn't attend Thatcher's funeral but are angry about Obama's absence is little more than a sign of your own hypocrisy.

That so-called murdering, terrorist/Communist was the first black chief executive of South Africa, a Constitutional Democracy.Were he didn't attempt to usher in Communism, but did hold true to his word of only running for one term.  

He was a terrorist and a murderer. He paid for those crimes in jail. Mandela could have been vengeful when he became president but took the high road instead. I give him credit for that. But Mandela was no humanitarian. After all MLK achieved the same thing without violence. As far as I am concerned MLK is a far greater man than Mandela.

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

He was a terrorist and a murderer. He paid for those crimes in jail

He did no such thing. He was charged with four counts of sabotage and conspiracy to overthrow the government. It was guerrilla warfare waged against an oppressive regime. And he never personally gave orders to target civilians.

ilaugh wrote:

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

He was a terrorist and a murderer. He paid for those crimes in jail

He did no such thing. He was charged with four counts of sabotage and conspiracy to overthrow the government. It was guerrilla warfare waged against an oppressive regime. And he never personally gave orders to target civilians.  

Well than your the only that believes that.

On 5 December 1956, Mandela was arrested alongside most of the ANC Executive for "high treason" against the state. Held in Johannesburg Prison amid mass protests, they underwent a preparatory examination in Drill Hall on 19 December, before being granted bail.[93] The defence's refutation began on 9 January 1957, overseen by defence lawyer Vernon Berrangé, and continued until adjourning in September. In January 1958, judge Oswald Pirow was appointed to the case, and in February he ruled that there was "sufficient reason" for the defendants to go on trial in the Transvaal Supreme Court.[94] The formal Treason Trial began in Pretoria in August 1958, with the defendants successfully applying to have the three judges – all linked to the governing National Party – replaced. In August, one charge was dropped, and in October the prosecution withdrew its indictment, submitting a reformulated version in November which argued that the ANC leadership committed high treason by advocating violent revolution, a charge the defendants denied.

‘Brothers and Sisters, Learn from Mandela’ In his book Long Walk to Freedom Nelson Mandela wrote that as a leading member of the ANC’s executive committee, he had “personally signed off” in approving these acts of terrorism, the pictures and details of which follow below. This is the horror which Mandela had “signed off” for while he was in prison – convicted for other acts of terrorism after the Rivonia trial. The late SA president P.W. Botha told Mandela in 1985 that he could be a free man as long as he did just one thing: ‘publicly renounce violence’. Mandela refused. That is why Mandela remained in prison until the appeaser Pres F W de Klerk freed him unconditionally. The bottom line? Nelson Mandela never publicly renounced the use of violence to further the ‘cause of freedom’.

Why do you guys sugarcoat it?

When Mandela was arrested on his Rivonia farm hideout near Johannesburg, the following munitions and bomb-making equipment were confiscated with him and his comrades.

(Read his ‘Rivonia trial’ transcripts for all the details, starting with his heroic opening statement: “I am prepared to die…’ http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/rivonia.html – clearly he didn’t care whether all those innocent civilians whose tortured and mutilated bodies can be seen below, died either)

210,000 hand grenades
48,000 anti-personnel mines
1,500 time devices
144 tons of ammonium nitrate
21,6 tons of aluminium powder
1 ton of black powder

Mandela was never convicted of murder or "terrorism" nor have I read in Mandela's own words or any court transcripts that he gave the okay for the deliberate targeting of civilians.

ilaugh wrote:

eber322 wrote:

Oh ok, so if some other president did something wrong that means it's ok for Obama to do too. Great logic.

Who said I think it was wrong.

Someone is President for life. It's a lifelong appointment. So the fact that you don't care that Bush didn't attend Thatcher's funeral but are angry about Obama's absence is little more than a sign of your own hypocrisy.

That so-called murdering, terrorist/Communist was the first black chief executive of South Africa, a Constitutional Democracy.Were he didn't attempt to usher in Communism, but did hold true to his word of only running for one term.  

My lord but you are dense. You implied that I shouldn't think Obama was wrong because Reagan did the same thing for somebody else. My response is that just because Reagan did something doesn't make it right, nor does it excuse Obama doing it. Get it now? It was your argument I was refuting.

President for life huh? So then Jimmy Carter must still be running the country then, after all he is the earliest elected president still alive. Why doesn't he march into the White House and kick Obama out then and declare everything Reagan, both Bushes, Clinton and Obama have ever done null and void? Oh yeah, he can't because he isn't president anymore and hasn't been since Reagan was sworn in. Former presidents are addressed as Mr. President as a sign of respect for their past service in that role, but they are not still president and hold no official power. And yes something a former president does, or doesn't do, can reflect on the country, but not nearly as much as what the current leader of our country does. Anything the President does, as the leader of the USA, is taken as a direct endorsement or denouncement by our country. What a former president does is nothing but a personal opinion.

Mandela isn't a "so-called murdering, terrorist/Communist" he is in fact a murdering, terrorist/Communist. There is no question of that.

eber322 wrote:

My lord but you are dense.

You mean to tell me this little smart ass remark, "Great logic" wasn't aimed at me. Because I'm pretty sure it wasn't self examination on your part.

eber322 wrote:

What a former president does is nothing but a personal opinion.

It's not just a sign of respect to address living Presidents as such, They are still on the payroll still have an office and a staff, and while they no longer make Presidential decisions they are recognized as a US President. So your personal opinion reflects your own hypocrisy. Gee whiz eber is a ideologue, go figure.

Mandela never murdered anyone nor did he call for the death of any civilian, and was never convicted of such. And never practiced Communism as the leader of South Africa. He was no more a Communist than FDR was for his alliance with the Soviet Union during WWII.

ilaugh wrote:

eber322 wrote:

My lord but you are dense.

You mean to tell me this little smart ass remark, "Great logic" wasn't aimed at me. Because I'm pretty sure it wasn't self examination on your part.

eber322 wrote:

What a former president does is nothing but a personal opinion.

It's not just a sign of respect to address living Presidents as such, They are still on the payroll still have an office and a staff, and while they no longer make Presidential decisions they are recognized as a US President. So your personal opinion reflects your own hypocrisy. Gee whiz eber is a ideologue, go figure.

Mandela never murdered anyone nor did he call for the death of any civilian, and was never convicted of such. And never practiced Communism as the leader of South Africa. He was no more a Communist than FDR was for his alliance with the Soviet Union during WWII.

Didn't I just post the thing where he signed the orders to murder people. So what you are saying is Bush never murdered anyone also because he didn't actually do it.

ilaugh wrote:

You mean to tell me this little smart ass remark, "Great logic" wasn't aimed at me. Because I'm pretty sure it wasn't self examination on your part.

EDIT

I find it hard to believe anybody can be as dumb as you're acting, which means you're just trolling again. Back on ignore you go, to stay this time.

eber322 wrote:

ilaugh wrote:

You mean to tell me this little smart ass remark, "Great logic" wasn't aimed at me. Because I'm pretty sure it wasn't self examination on your part.

EDIT

I find it hard to believe anybody can be as dumb as you're acting, which means you're just trolling again. Back on ignore you go, to stay this time.

That's okay. I'll express my opinions on your shallow arguments and name calling anyway.

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

ilaugh wrote:

eber322 wrote:

My lord but you are dense.

You mean to tell me this little smart ass remark, "Great logic" wasn't aimed at me. Because I'm pretty sure it wasn't self examination on your part.

eber322 wrote:

What a former president does is nothing but a personal opinion.

It's not just a sign of respect to address living Presidents as such, They are still on the payroll still have an office and a staff, and while they no longer make Presidential decisions they are recognized as a US President. So your personal opinion reflects your own hypocrisy. Gee whiz eber is a ideologue, go figure.

Mandela never murdered anyone nor did he call for the death of any civilian, and was never convicted of such. And never practiced Communism as the leader of South Africa. He was no more a Communist than FDR was for his alliance with the Soviet Union during WWII.

Didn't I just post the thing where he signed the orders to murder people. So what you are saying is Bush never murdered anyone also because he didn't actually do it.

What I said is that Mandella never "signed off" on the deliberate targeting of civilians.

Are you saying Bush is a terrorist? Or that Bush is a murder?

ilaugh wrote:

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

ilaugh wrote:

eber322 wrote:

My lord but you are dense.

You mean to tell me this little smart ass remark, "Great logic" wasn't aimed at me. Because I'm pretty sure it wasn't self examination on your part.

eber322 wrote:

What a former president does is nothing but a personal opinion.

It's not just a sign of respect to address living Presidents as such, They are still on the payroll still have an office and a staff, and while they no longer make Presidential decisions they are recognized as a US President. So your personal opinion reflects your own hypocrisy. Gee whiz eber is a ideologue, go figure.

Mandela never murdered anyone nor did he call for the death of any civilian, and was never convicted of such. And never practiced Communism as the leader of South Africa. He was no more a Communist than FDR was for his alliance with the Soviet Union during WWII.

Didn't I just post the thing where he signed the orders to murder people. So what you are saying is Bush never murdered anyone also because he didn't actually do it.

What I said is that Mandella never "signed off" on the deliberate targeting of civilians.

Are you saying Bush is a terrorist? Or that Bush is a murder?

In Mandalas book he said he did. As far Bush no. I using your logic. So Bush is not a war criminal because he did not sign off on killing civilians? According to your logic.

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

ilaugh wrote:

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

ilaugh wrote:

eber322 wrote:

My lord but you are dense.

You mean to tell me this little smart ass remark, "Great logic" wasn't aimed at me. Because I'm pretty sure it wasn't self examination on your part.

eber322 wrote:

What a former president does is nothing but a personal opinion.

It's not just a sign of respect to address living Presidents as such, They are still on the payroll still have an office and a staff, and while they no longer make Presidential decisions they are recognized as a US President. So your personal opinion reflects your own hypocrisy. Gee whiz eber is a ideologue, go figure.

Mandela never murdered anyone nor did he call for the death of any civilian, and was never convicted of such. And never practiced Communism as the leader of South Africa. He was no more a Communist than FDR was for his alliance with the Soviet Union during WWII.

Didn't I just post the thing where he signed the orders to murder people. So what you are saying is Bush never murdered anyone also because he didn't actually do it.

What I said is that Mandella never "signed off" on the deliberate targeting of civilians.

Are you saying Bush is a terrorist? Or that Bush is a murder?

In Mandalas book he said he did. As far Bush no. I using your logic. So Bush is not a war criminal because he did not sign off on killing civilians? According to your logic.

He said that he okayed the deliberate targeting of civilians? I don't think so. Perhaps you could provide a direct quote showing that he was not only okay with but requesting that the ANC or the MK target civilians. Because I've never come across any such thing.

When he say that? I don't remember it. When I google it all I find is that Obama targeting civilians with drones. Only stories on Obama doing it. Still searching though. Nope still cannot find it. Still looking. Nope cannot find where Bush gave that order to our military troops.

Actually Mandala was going to blow up parliament how many innocent civilians there? I am talking janitors supply clerks secretaries. The ANC killed anyone opposed to them.

THE ANC’S VICTIMS WERE MOSTLY CIVILIANS:
1981 – 2 car bombs at Durban showrooms
1983 – Church Street Bomb (killed 19, wounded 217)
1984 – Durban car bomb (killed 5, wounded 27)
1985-1987 – At least 150 landmines on farm roads (killed 125)
1985 – Amanzimtoti Sanlam shopping centre bomb Dec 23 (killed 2 white women and 3 white children)
1986 – Magoo’s Bar bomb (killed 3, wounded 69)
1986 – Newcastle Court bomb (wounded 24)
1987 – Johannesburg Court bomb (killed 3, wounded 10)
1987 – Wits command centre car bomb (killed 1, wounded 68)
1988 – Johannesburg video arcade (killed 1 unborn baby, wounded 10)
1988 – Roodepoort bank bomb (killed 4, wounded 18)
1988 – Pretoria Police housing unit, 2 bombs (wounded 3)
1988 – Magistrate’s Court bomb (killed 3)
1988 – Benoni Wimpy Bar bomb (killed 1, wounded 56)
1988 – Witbank shopping centre bomb (killed 2, wounded 42)
1988 – Ellis Park Rugby Stadium car bomb (killed 2, wounded 37)
Late 1980s – numerous Wimpy Restaurant bombs (killed many, wounded many.

No innocents huh?

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

No innocents huh?

Civilians die in war, it's an unfortunate part of warfare. There is a difference between civilian casualties and deliberately targeting civilians though.  

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

Nope cannot find where Bush gave that order to our military troops.

Don't know what your getting at here. What order. I never claimed Bush or Obama ordered anything here. You're the one that made the Bush comparison.

The ANC used guerrilla warfare tactics because that's what was available to them. I'm not sure all the bombing you listed above were claimed by the ANC, but their targets were military and infrastructure related and in the vast majority of their sabotage/bombings missions no human casualties incurred. On the other hand the apartheid controlled government of South Africa often targeted civilians.

ilaugh wrote:

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

No innocents huh?

Civilians die in war, it's an unfortunate part of warfare. There is a difference between civilian casualties and deliberately targeting civilians though.  

Pissedoffvulcan wrote:

Nope cannot find where Bush gave that order to our military troops.

Don't know what your getting at here. What order. I never claimed Bush or Obama ordered anything here. You're the one that made the Bush comparison.

The ANC used guerrilla warfare tactics because that's what was available to them. I'm not sure all the bombing you listed above were claimed by the ANC, but their targets were military and infrastructure related and in the vast majority of their sabotage/bombings missions no human casualties incurred. On the other hand the apartheid controlled government of South Africa often targeted civilians.

My bad I thought you said Bush said it ok to target civilians.

If you look at the list of bombings mostly it is the civilian population. Which Mandala ordered according to his book. He was not targeting at the rime government buildings.