Common Sense - Thomas Paine

I recently listened to Common Sense and found it really interesting. If anyone else hasn't read/listened yet heres the audio book I used.
http://www.freeaudio.org/tpaine/commonsense.html

It seems to me Thomas harnessed christ worship to help the revolution then as soon as the country was founded turned his pen onto the next largest tyrant he could find... organized religion. It does bring his integrity into question but I wonder how much of that was Ben Franklin's doing because afterall he was the one who persuaded him to write Common Sense(and to come to USA for that matter, a term Paine coined himself). I need to absorb more from this main he fascinates me.

BTW, the thing MOST people over look is Christ HATED organized religion! Too many rules shackling the people. 'I have come not to condem the world, but to SAVE the world.' Following the rules of men did and has and will get in the way of salvation, for he saves by grace not by action of men.

But, we do have free will to do as we will, to worship as we will and etc.

Religion is always a form of tryanny in my eyes... it isn't free choice of you are iindoctrinated at a ripe young age. The audios a little over 2 hours.

Skycastle wrote:

Walterth3rd wrote:

BTW, the thing MOST people over look is Christ HATED organized religion! Too many rules shackling the people. 'I have come not to condem the world, but to SAVE the world.' Following the rules of men did and has and will get in the way of salvation, for he saves by grace not by action of men.

Actually, what Christ hated was hypocrisy [Matthew 23], not organized religion. He never condemned the Jews for meeting in the synagogues to worship God. And the Bible is clear in Hebrews 10:25 that Christians are to meet together to worship God.

Of course you're right in saying that following the rules of men won't save anyone, but that's not what going to church is about. I go to a church which is part of the Evangelical Free Church in America (EFCA) and it's very good. Has your experience been different?

Of course, you are correct, I saw religion and my hackles raised instantly. Been around too many Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses and such. Forgive me. Religion is scary but remember, didn't Peter write to the Jews that they should not tell the Gentiles they needed to change their way of practicing in order to be accepted into Heaven? That as long as they accepted Christ they were already accepted and the rules of men would do nothing to change that to the better? I believe that was in 1st Corinthians or so.

Skycastle wrote:

YawnGG wrote:

Religion is always a form of tryanny in my eyes... it isn't free choice of you are iindoctrinated at a ripe young age. The audios a little over 2 hours.

Truth isn't tyranny, and being brought up by your parents to love truth and God is a wonderful thing. Why are you so hostile to the teachings of Christ and the Bible?

I am hostile towards them because they are a form of control and im a libertarian. I believe in personal freedom. I find it disguisting that kings of old are still brainwashing children today and i find it shameful towards anyone who would do that.

Skycastle wrote:

Yes, accepting Christ is the only way to heaven and the rules of men wont change that. But that's no reason to avoid going to church. God wants us to worship him together in groups and gatherings, and that's called church. I really don't understand your dislike of group worship. Are you unable to find a good church in your town?

I am sorry, I did sound like I hated church, didn't I? Actually, I DID, but now have found one that I am comfortable with, no judging people standing around and oh yeah, they actually teach directly from the bible, chapter by chapter. Loving it!!! Thank you for asking.

Skycastle wrote:

YawnGG wrote:

I am hostile towards them because they are a form of control and im a libertarian. I believe in personal freedom. I find it disguisting that kings of old are still brainwashing children today and i find it shameful towards anyone who would do that.

But rightful control is a good thing, as when an airline pilot safely flys (controls) the airplane to a safe landing. Without proper control things can fall apart. I consider myself a Christian Libertarian and I love freedom. But too much freedom can be destructive, as when a train goes off the tracks. As long as it stays on the tracks, it performs its function well, but without the tracks to control its journey a train is useless. That applies to the spirit world as well. We need God and his laws to keep us on track and help us to live correctly. He knows what's best since he created the universe and all life in it. To hate him is to hate life and love and to embrace spiritual darkness. Don't you know that Libertarians can still love God?

I like you alot sky but you are afraid of freedom.

And no. I dont think anyone who trully understands libertarian philosophy can worship any man made god. Some may claim they do but there are political reasons for that and the rest just dont get ... as always its imo but im willing to debate this till our fingers hurt. "Come at me bro!" lol.

PS: this post was completely uneeded. the previous summed it up.

Skycastle wrote:

You're right in saying that we shouldn't worship any man-made god, but what about the real God? I'm convinced that Jesus Christ is indeed “The Way, the Truth, and the Life,” and the way to salvation and freedom for all mankind. We didn't create him – he created us. And he made us so that we only find our perfect peace in loving him. We're made to love and worship God, but his enemies (fallen angels, Lucifer, Satan) try to trick and confuse us into thinking otherwise, and that can work exceedingly well given our sin natures. We live in a spiritual war zone, where the fighting never ends: Light vs Darkness, Good vs Evil, Truth vs Lies. Confusion and misinformation are everywhere. That's why we need to follow the light – to come to our creator for the truth. Only he sees truth and goodness perfectly. We're all partially blind spiritually, but God sees clearly and can lead us safely through the maze of life. We need him, badly, even when we don't know it.
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Amen!!!

Skycastle wrote:

YawnGG wrote:

I like you alot sky but you are afraid of freedom.

I like you too, YawnGG. And we do live in a confusing world, don't we? Good people are often on opposite sides of important issues, and I think it's usually due to a lack of true understanding. Libertarians love freedom but don't understand the basis of freedom. Perfect freedom isn't freedom to do whatever you want, it's freedom to do the right thing. Yes, it can be fun to be able to do the wrong thing sometimes, such as getting fall-down drunk, but I think that enjoyment comes from our sin nature. And even Libertarians agree that “freedom” doesn't include the right to do ANYTHING. There are some things we shouldn't be allowed to do, such as rape, murder, theft, etc. So you do understand that there are proper limits to freedom, even for a Libertarian. But it goes beyond that. Even though we may not understand it, there exists a universal good, a way to think and behave that is in tune with love, goodness, and truth in the universe. But only God sees the big picture here – we only see shadows. That's why we need to take his word for it, even when we don't understand why.

You're right in saying that we shouldn't worship any man-made god, but what about the real God? I'm convinced that Jesus Christ is indeed “The Way, the Truth, and the Life,” and the way to salvation and freedom for all mankind. We didn't create him – he created us. And he made us so that we only find our perfect peace in loving him. We're made to love and worship God, but his enemies (fallen angels, Lucifer, Satan) try to trick and confuse us into thinking otherwise, and that can work exceedingly well given our sin natures. We live in a spiritual war zone, where the fighting never ends: Light vs Darkness, Good vs Evil, Truth vs Lies. Confusion and misinformation are everywhere. That's why we need to follow the light – to come to our creator for the truth. Only he sees truth and goodness perfectly. We're all partially blind spiritually, but God sees clearly and can lead us safely through the maze of life. We need him, badly, even when we don't know it.

To conclude, I see no need to be a “pure” Libertarian. I take what's good from their philosophy and discard what isn't. For example I don't support the elimination of national borders or unlimited immigration, which many Libertarians do.

I think your philosophy is flawed. Freedom can only exist if one is not imposing on someone elses freedom, to not be raped murdered robbed etc. Where do you get your concept of god from?

Ah I forgot to mention.. no borders. Yes its really easy to look at the problems and blame our weak borders, but i think many of those problems are due to the borders existing in the first place.. imaginary lines of control.

In fact i think every single problem with having no borders comes from the fact that we have them..

YawnGG wrote:

I think your philosophy is flawed. Freedom can only exist if one is not imposing on someone elses freedom, to not be raped murdered robbed etc. Where do you get your concept of god from?

My philosophy is realistic and based on reality; no freedom is total. No matter which nation in the world you live in, there are laws you must obey. In America, you must obey all the rules and regulations made by government. Nobody is autonomous - no such thing in this world. Even if you moved into the mountains, free from the laws of men, you'd still have the laws of nature to deal with. Walk off a high cliff and you'll likely die. Laws, both physical and spiritual are quite real, and we are all bound by them, whether we like it or not. But that doesn't mean we're not free. Freedom within limits is good. For example, young children playing inside a fenced yard are safe from many dangers which lie outside the fence, such as cars, kidnappers, dangerous animals, and getting lost. That's good, and their parents are giving them all the freedom it's safe to give them. It's the same with God. He gives us all the freedom it's safe and right to give us, but that still leaves tremendous freedom in the world. And you also need to understand that everyone is answerable to higher authorities, especially God, since he created us.

Being the creator gives you rights over your creation. If you build a birdhouse, it's yours to do whatever you want with. If you own rabbits, you have the right to control their freedom. It ain't up to them, is it? It's the same with God and us. We are his creation, and therefore he has the right to set the limits by which we must all live. He has the right to establish the boundaries of our freedom, both physical and spiritual. And the freedom he allows us is proper and good freedom. But even though our freedom isn't total – we CAN'T do whatever we damn well please in the world – we are still free. And that's good, and we need to accept that without rebelling against it. We don't have the right to tell God how we're going to live and ignore his word and warnings. As our creator – he chooses. To rebel against that is to be wrongly self-serving and lawless, and we should expect to suffer the consequences. Instead, we should be thankful that he's given us the tremendous freedom that we have. That's fair and right.

I get my concept of God from the Bible, and what he's shown me over the years. I don't know everything, but I know enough to live properly in the world, and to expect an unimaginably better life in the next world, for God has promised that to his children.

“Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away...And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
– Revelation 21:1,4

Skycastle wrote:

YawnGG wrote:

I think your philosophy is flawed. Freedom can only exist if one is not imposing on someone elses freedom, to not be raped murdered robbed etc. Where do you get your concept of god from?

My philosophy is realistic and based on reality; no freedom is total. No matter which nation in the world you live in, there are laws you must obey. In America, you must obey all the rules and regulations made by government. Nobody is autonomous - no such thing in this world. Even if you moved into the mountains, free from the laws of men, you'd still have the laws of nature to deal with. Walk off a high cliff and you'll likely die. Laws, both physical and spiritual are quite real, and we are all bound by them, whether we like it or not. But that doesn't mean we're not free. Freedom within limits is good. For example, young children playing inside a fenced yard are safe from many dangers which lie outside the fence, such as cars, kidnappers, dangerous animals, and getting lost. That's good, and their parents are giving them all the freedom it's safe to give them. It's the same with God. He gives us all the freedom it's safe and right to give us, but that still leaves tremendous freedom in the world. And you also need to understand that everyone is answerable to higher authorities, especially God, since he created us.

Being the creator gives you rights over your creation. If you build a birdhouse, it's yours to do whatever you want with. If you own rabbits, you have the right to control their freedom. It ain't up to them, is it? It's the same with God and us. We are his creation, and therefore he has the right to set the limits by which we must all live. He has the right to establish the boundaries of our freedom, both physical and spiritual. And the freedom he allows us is proper and good freedom. But even though our freedom isn't total – we CAN'T do whatever we damn well please in the world – we are still free. And that's good, and we need to accept that without rebelling against it. We don't have the right to tell God how we're going to live and ignore his word and warnings. As our creator – he chooses. To rebel against that is to be wrongly self-serving and lawless, and we should expect to suffer the consequences. Instead, we should be thankful that he's given us the tremendous freedom that we have. That's fair and right.

I get my concept of God from the Bible, and what he's shown me over the years. I don't know everything, but I know enough to live properly in the world, and to expect an unimaginably better life in the next world, for God has promised that to his children.

“Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away...And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
– Revelation 21:1,4

I couldn't disagree more. There is nothing more unrealistic then reading a 2000 year old book written by kings that has been proven wrong countless times and still claiming its the word of "god". Do you look upon scientologist as fools? As unrealistic? Why because there book is newer, because its history as coming from a sci fi author hasnt been purged from existance during a time when the scientoligist destroyed much of human kinds works? Also if you "create" something you don't have the right to do anything you want with it, its that kind of flawed thinking that leads to people like Charles Manson. Freedom has multiple meanings... when I want freedom its freedom from opression, the destruction of all your false gods and kings.

Comparing a human to a bird house is a waste of time and thinking humanity couldn't survive without some imaginary tyrant floating around on a cloud thats gonna shoot thunderbolts into ur ass as soon you slip up or equally some asshole with a crown that tells you what to do is just simply sad.. I am not a dog I wouldn't cower before your "god" even if he was real because he has a lot of questions, what a horrible parent he would be.

Skycastle, it does no good to debate these issues with hardcore Christian haters. They are convinced fire is cold, ice is hot, pigs have wings, and the Bible "has been proven wrong countless times".

Does matter every one of those statements is the absolute opposite of the truth. They believe it with more faith than any religious zealot has every believed anything.

?? I don't hate christians at all. Just because you have bonded these falsehoods to your personal identity doesn't mean I hate anyone based on that. This defense you are using is weak though, I don't believe fire is ice.. are you repeating something your preacher told you? The bible has proven wrong countless times, and it contains contradictions within itself. Both storys of creation have been proven wrong for instance. There was never a world wide flood. Need more? Run..RUN!! Keep repeating Jesus loves me till the truth vanishes from your mind. :)

Sorry if my behavior offends but I find this type of thing amusing but at the same time its good because it gives me the gusto to keep spreading the truth. I do find saying I will believe anything calling the pot calling the kettle black though. Dinosaurs?? The devil put them there to confuse you! Speaking of the devil, if god is all powerful why doesn't he just kill him and save all his children? Seems like the proper thing to do to me.. instead of watching trillions of your children burn for eternity at his hand..